tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37179942.post3696859969876117852..comments2023-10-22T05:51:58.898-04:00Comments on Soob: Seven Years Later and President Bush Still Hasn't Got His Man; The Pro's and Cons of Killing Osama bin LadenJay@Soobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12208597218366281778noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37179942.post-6945872145584289492008-09-16T18:15:00.000-04:002008-09-16T18:15:00.000-04:00Point well taken, C. Let's hope the trend continue...Point well taken, C. Let's hope the trend continues. From this perspective eliminating bin Laden and al Zawahiri could present a preemptive measure to AQ shifting it's tactics away from stateless, wholly ideologically driven entity to one more along the lines of Hamas of Hezbollah.Jay@Soobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12208597218366281778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37179942.post-41291048548943909042008-09-16T10:40:00.000-04:002008-09-16T10:40:00.000-04:00US officials: Al-Qaida unpopular and 'imploding'WA...<A HREF="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080916/ap_on_go_ot/us_al_qaida;_ylt=Aj.vyTWe2kNEDLvzN1RLLY.s0NUE" REL="nofollow">US officials: Al-Qaida unpopular and 'imploding'</A><BR/><BR/><I>WASHINGTON - Top U.S. counterterrorism officials Monday said al-Qaida is "imploding" and that its violent tactics have turned Muslims worldwide against the organization. "Absolutely it's imploding. It's imploding because it's not a message that resonates with a lot of Muslims," said Dell Dailey, the State Department's coordinator for counterterrorism.</I>Cannoneer No. 4https://www.blogger.com/profile/05235351920307868511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37179942.post-26403159368766056782008-09-15T18:23:00.000-04:002008-09-15T18:23:00.000-04:00it's certainly not out of the question. Little evi...it's certainly not out of the question. Little evidence of bin Laden actually living and breathing has been put forth for years now. AQ and the CIA might well have strategic cause to play "Weekend at bin Laden's."Jay@Soobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12208597218366281778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37179942.post-52440877246753460592008-09-15T10:40:00.000-04:002008-09-15T10:40:00.000-04:00I'm not convinced he's alive. I think Osama bin de...I'm not convinced he's alive. I think Osama bin dead since Tora Bora. Only the CIA needs to keep him "alive." Along with Barry, of course.Dick Stanleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08928787462157704978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37179942.post-7276467363007304682008-09-14T22:04:00.000-04:002008-09-14T22:04:00.000-04:00Steve one more martyr in terms of Osama bin Laden ...Steve one more martyr in terms of Osama bin Laden is a far cry from the obligatory list of say, Palestinian martyrs. Bin Laden's message and method resonates in Islamic cultures the world around. As such bin Laden will hardly be "just another martyr" in the likes of an otherwise anonymous suicide bomber. <BR/><BR/>With bin Laden as a religious martyr in a global sense (from Indonesia to Saudi Arabia to Egypt) the next rank and file (even assuming Zawahiri is killed or captured as well) has as much if not more a platform for marketing Al Qaeda's extremism as now they have a conventional mythical figure to rally their cry.<BR/><BR/>I'm not acting the contrarian for the sake of argument, rather I'd suggest the US give a good deal of thought to how they'll deal with bin Laden should they find him within their grasp. In a sense I'm playing devil's advocate and hoping that our government is giving half as much thought to the situation as what is evident here in this commentary.Jay@Soobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12208597218366281778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37179942.post-8200031736962676582008-09-14T20:57:00.000-04:002008-09-14T20:57:00.000-04:00Addendum to my previous comment - With bin Laden d...Addendum to my previous comment - <BR/><BR/>With bin Laden dead we could also consolidate our efforts in other areas, and reduce the amount of things our foreign policy machine and military are juggling.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09756943975692131137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37179942.post-45161864975559617092008-09-14T20:55:00.000-04:002008-09-14T20:55:00.000-04:00JayWhat is the marginal value of one more martyr i...Jay<BR/><BR/>What is the marginal value of one more martyr in the world of radical Islam? There seem to be quite a few already.<BR/><BR/>Basically I think it's a matter of weighing that marginal "martyr value" against bin Laden's proven ability to organize, compel, lead and market. He's clearly off the charts in terms of his cultural impact in his world, I don't think he would be so easily replaced.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09756943975692131137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37179942.post-20923798746447744912008-09-14T20:26:00.000-04:002008-09-14T20:26:00.000-04:00steve,But as a martyr couldn't bin Laden be even m...steve,<BR/><BR/>But as a martyr couldn't bin Laden be even more potent? I agree with the Historian that bin Laden caged is the most effective manner in ending him.Jay@Soobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12208597218366281778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37179942.post-83898469291277848602008-09-14T20:20:00.000-04:002008-09-14T20:20:00.000-04:00David, if you think any foreign presence is going ...David, if you think any foreign presence is going to change centuries of tradition among the mostly rural Pashtun tribes in Afghanistan you've got another thing coming (as the great linguist, Judas Priest once advised.) The top down effect can only ensure (and this is dicey at best) a western friendly central government which will, one hopes, plant the seeds of global connectivity. As more "enlightened" culture and economic connectivity reaches the people of Afghanistan and the more they realize benefits in their own standard of living, the more they'll "evolve" out of the centuries of tribal and Islamic ideals that have defined them thus far. Neither the US nor NATO are going to deliver the vast majority of Afghani's to the 21st century and liberal democracy through tanks and bombs. That's a matter that will be left to both the Afghan government and the will of the people.Jay@Soobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12208597218366281778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37179942.post-57773225614027748102008-09-14T20:16:00.000-04:002008-09-14T20:16:00.000-04:00Soob-I'm with you in that either way works. Spend...Soob-<BR/><BR/>I'm with you in that either way works. <BR/><BR/>Spending the rest of his life in a cave like cell on death row or being trapped in a cell like cave on some remote mountain side while al Qaeda is further degraded and disenfranchised in the field provides similar final rewards for Osama, if he is still alive.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03415598500147558589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37179942.post-38739966258992585532008-09-14T14:44:00.000-04:002008-09-14T14:44:00.000-04:00The world would be better off if he were killed, b...The world would be better off if he were killed, by Americans, suddenly and not notably.<BR/><BR/>The Muslim world is lousy with martyrs (to quote Scheaur) and with the removal of bin Laden from the stage we no longer have to deal with his marketing appeal and organizational talent on the psychotic segment of the Muslim world.<BR/><BR/>Also, America has far, far too many plates spinning right now, way more than we can handle. If we close a few doors we can concentrate on what remains.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09756943975692131137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37179942.post-52532234376881068392008-09-14T13:40:00.000-04:002008-09-14T13:40:00.000-04:00Bottom-up change is overrated when it is not being...Bottom-up change is overrated when it is not being pushed from the top-down.<BR/><BR/>The US seems to have forgotten to push.<BR/><BR/>And one of the whole points of going to war was the improvement of the situation in Afghanistan for its people, this is a long time coming.Daniel Hoffmann-Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02531802987223516482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37179942.post-8278258850595161662008-09-14T11:49:00.000-04:002008-09-14T11:49:00.000-04:00Hi Daniel,Change in Afghanistan is going to have t...Hi Daniel,<BR/><BR/>Change in Afghanistan is going to have to happen from the bottom up and even given the best scenario (a stable war free and independent state) will be a long time coming.Jay@Soobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12208597218366281778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37179942.post-84230774477086957512008-09-14T11:44:00.000-04:002008-09-14T11:44:00.000-04:00C4, thanks for the comment. My opinion is that it ...C4, thanks for the comment. My opinion is that it could go either way. Bin laden's popular not just with "nutjobs" but entire societies across the Muslim world. Hussein was a regional pariah by comparison.<BR/><BR/>I would add that from a strategic standpoint it would make more sense to keep Bin Laden alive and jailed than it would to stage the sensation you highlight above.Jay@Soobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12208597218366281778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37179942.post-59831147408728754992008-09-14T08:41:00.000-04:002008-09-14T08:41:00.000-04:00Thanks for stopping by, the post was about how ver...Thanks for stopping by, the post was about how very little has changed rather than it was better before the invasion.<BR/><BR/>Surely you would expect change for the better by now?Daniel Hoffmann-Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02531802987223516482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37179942.post-15446513283127282822008-09-14T04:32:00.000-04:002008-09-14T04:32:00.000-04:00I think you overestimate the positive impact his "...I think you overestimate the positive impact his "martyrdom" would have on the murderous nutjobs and underestimate the effect bin Laden's capture alive or acquistion of his corpse would have on morale, ours and theirs.<BR/><BR/>Captured alive, his trial and execution, along with all the efforts to spring him or trade him for hostages or defend him in court would be high psycho-political drama which would smoke many cockroaches out of the woodwork. His execution should be public. I recommend hanging, either in New York City or near the Pentagon. Guard his corpse until the birds of the air pick it clean, then present the skull to President Bush. It will look good next to Pancho Villa's. Divide his skeleton among the units deployed for OEF, for display when the colors are broken out. The eagle atop the color staff will have to be modified to hold a bone in his beak. <BR/><BR/>The question of who was the strong horse would be answered definitively.<BR/><BR/>Acquistion of his body would also answer the strong horse question, and provide a basis for a narrative of cowardice, misery, illness, weakness and incapacity.<BR/><BR/>Saddam hasn't made much of a martyr. Osama may do somewhat better, but not so well that his martyrdom should not be valiantly strived for by all means available in the time left to President Bush.Cannoneer No. 4https://www.blogger.com/profile/05235351920307868511noreply@blogger.com